Interview
On the Legacy of Mark Fisher

An Interview with Matt Colquhoun

Entrevista con Matt Colquhoun

Edgar Morales y Jacqueline Calderón

Affects and Communities: On the Legacy of Mark Fisher.

  1. Matt, we have come to know you in the Hispanic realm through the translation of your book Egress: On Mourning, Melancholy and Mark Fisher (2020), which was published with a significant title change as Egreso. Sobre comunidad, duelo y Mark Fisher (2021). Beyond the contingency of editorial decisions, what kind of forces link or do not link the notions of “community” and “melancholy”?

There is plenty about the word “community” and its uses that I find personally disheartening, if not entirely melancholic. I believe there is a moment in Mark Fisher’s Postcapitalist Desire lectures where he mentions similar feelings. We so often hear about ‘the business community’, ‘the international community’ – uses of the word that point to vague notions of collective responsibility or shared interests, but which are otherwise vapid, reducing ‘community’ to a placeholder for generic kinds of professional enclosure. Although these uses retain a sense of intentional gathering, or an understanding of groups of people that share certain values or beliefs, they feel like cynical gestures towards a communal ethics that is hardly worthy of the name.

‘Community’ is, of course, a word that is etymologically related to ‘communality’, ‘commune’, even ‘communism’, with the latter continuing to strike fear into the hearts of many. There is something strange, then, in using the word ‘community’ so passively and generically, at a time when a more intentional politics of community is seen as anathema to the global system of capitalist under which we live, which privileges the individual above all else in its neoliberal guise.

When I was writing Egress, I wanted to reinvigorate the intentionality of a being-together, not in explicit opposition to these general uses of the word ‘community’, but rather in response to personal experience. Following Mark Fisher’s death, many of his students became aware of how our ‘community’ at Goldsmiths, University of London, was also passive and circumstantial, organized around the institution and its mechanisms rather than anything more meaningful and expansive (and this is still evident enough right now as the university engages in fire-and-rehire practices towards its teaching and custodial staff). Although we already shared space together, studied together, and many of us developed fast friendships, this community was given new force in our grief, and its limitations become more apparent. We thus began to involve ourselves in each other’s lives far more intentionally, caring for each other as we wrestled with more individual forms of pain. We became melancholic when we realized how different this communal comportment towards each other was in that moment, compared to how it appeared when we initially arrived at the university. Why did we not care for each other like this from the beginning, by default? Why did it take a catastrophe to make us care for each other so purposefully?

The institution felt like an obstacle to its ‘community’ in that moment, but this melancholy persists when we feel how our communities are at once constituted by institutions whilst those same institutions are unfit to sustain them. On leaving the institution of the university, for example, many of us upheld our commitment to one another, but this became far more difficult without the shared space of an institution to orient ourselves around, and as many friends began to move further and further away, due to other circumstances or in pursuit of work, it was sad how fragile this sense of community appeared to be.

So the links between community and melancholy are two-fold for me: ‘community’ is, on the one hand, all too often an anaemic concept in its general usage, but it also remains very difficult to sustain the more meaningful sense of an ethical relation to those around us.

2. In Egress, you emphasize the need to form affective communities, not mediated by identity issues, but how do you confront the apathy and nihilism that derive from the strengthening of capitalist realism?

‘Identity’ is a pernicious concept based on notions of sameness. We hold onto identities in the sense that we perceive ourselves ‘to be identical’ to certain qualities we see in others or in the world around us. But an ‘identity politics’ soon becomes problematic in this regard, as identifying and emboldening sameness does not always work in our favour. Mark Fisher was particularly damning on this point. In asserting a sense of identity, it is not only a question of who we identify with but also who we become identifiable to? As Fisher writes on his k-punk blog, arguing to an alternative: “Identity politics seeks respect and recognition from the master class; dis-identity politics seeks the dissolution of the classifactory apparatus itself.”

Why is this dissolution necessary? On an individual level, I might feel an innate sense of solidarity and comradery when I am amongst people who look like me, at the same time as I am aware that these identifying markers can also identity me as a target for others. ‘Identity’ thus becomes a problem where the basis for communal solidarity can also be utilized in service of collective punishment.

Michel Foucault writes about this in Discipline & Punish, and his work is central to a general philosophical animosity that was expressed towards regimes of representation (or the visual in general) throughout the twentieth century. Foucault’s example, in his discussion of disciplinary societies, is that it is not enough to simply ‘catch a thief’, but also identify what ‘a thief’ in general looks like. It is partly this process of identification and representation that emboldens racism and other kind of discrimination, and in this way the logic of identity can be brutal.

By way of another example, whilst it is unfortunately true that some followers of the Islamic faith have committed acts of terrorism, we have witnessed a process of homogenization take place whereby a problematic sense of ‘Muslimness’ – genericised as an ‘otherness’ – becomes synonymous with terrorism in general. But a paradox emerges here. Even though most acts of terrorism are committed by white men in the West, we only emphasize sameness on the basis of difference. To be non-white is to be ‘different’, but all people who are different are seen as the same. ‘Identity politics’ does not often tackle this convoluted logic when it is pursued on the basis of solidarity alone, because the inconvenient truth is that identity is not self-sustaining but is authorised by hierarchies of power. But we can note how power itself is more cunningly evasive of identitarian categories. Those with power often occupy an identitarian void in this way; it is only very recently that ‘whiteness’ or ‘masculinity’ or ‘heterosexuality’ have been theorised as particular categorises in themselves, with their own identifying markers, as opposed to general standards that difference is measured against. Relatedly, in thinking in the generic terms that power hands down to us, we find that our attempts to assert identities of difference still measure themselves against certain social norms. We remain beholden to the standards of that which we are critiquing, precisely because the same and the different are so entangled.

This is why ‘identity politics’ is poorly named, and has been so susceptible to appropriation. We must acknowledge that ‘identity politics’ has its academic roots in black feminism and theories of intersectionality, and thus on the building of solidarity across different social categories. But in being so named, ‘identity politics’ has come to refer to a politics of sameness rather than a politics of difference. This is unfortunate, but we can address this epistemic slippage in redefining our terms.

It is partly for this reason that, in Egress, I wrote about the importance of a “solidarity without similarity”. As we contend with these contradictions at work in identity, we unearth myriad philosophical problems that hold no easy answers. How are we supposed to assert a sense of difference that is contrary to hegemonic power whilst not, at the same time, falling victim to power’s tendency to subsume difference under sameness regardless? I am reminded of Gilles Deleuze’s seminal and notoriously difficult text, Difference & Repetition, in which he attempts to think “difference-in-itself” – a difference that is not beholden or subordinated to notions of the same. As Deleuze cartwheels around the history of philosophy, he proposes a radical and rigorous critique of that most pervasive politics of the identical: the “image of thought” we refer to as a ‘common sense’, which presupposes certain forms of universal knowledge that “everybody knows”; a ‘common sense’ that is nothing more than the presumptions of ideology. To read a work such as this is to confront the full and convoluted extent to which ‘identity politics’ is not a radical alternative but rather the norm of our political world, where the different within the same and the same within the different are set across from each other in a confusing and embattled ‘culture war’, where all that is at stake are useless notions of ‘common sense’ that (ironically) help nobody.

Mark Fisher’s Capitalist Realism partly deals with these same issues, and on a similarly grand ideological scale. To introduce some classic Marxism back into Fisher’s text, we can understand “capitalist realism” as the name given to our present system of ‘common sense’, with its complex regime of ‘value-forms’, which are as economic as they are social, abstracting the material interrelation of all things, thus alienating individuals not only from the products of their labours but from themselves and each other. This process is made possible through a more abstraction kind of ‘identity politics’, which is its own system of value that seems as inescapable as commodity fetishism. Whilst this may seem strange, consider how, in the first chapter of Capital, Marx uses the famous example of a coat to describe how an object becomes a commodity once its enters into the abstract realm of exchange value, which is ascertained on the basis of identity, of sameness, of economic equivalence – a coat has the same value as 40 lb. of coffee or a quarter of wheat or two ounces of gold, etc. What Marx (and Marxism in general) reveals is that subjects are embroiled in this process as readily as objects are, such that individual identities become identifiable objects in themselves – they are objectified, reified, through abstraction.

Moving from this microscale of abstracted subject/object relations to the macroscale, we find that capitalist alienation is so pervasiveness that it has a peculiar impact on thought in general, and not only in how we think about objects and commodities, but the world itself as an object that is reified into a totalising capitalist state. In this way, the identification of our world as a capitalist world produces a confusing catch-22, as argued by Jean-François Lyotard in Libidinal Economy: in becoming aware of how the world works in its totality, such that our world is absolutely capitalist, we struggle to produce alternatives to it and find points of exit from its influence, since the very identification of our world system becomes embroiled in the classificatory systems we are otherwise critiquing.

This is similarly Fisher’s concern in his Postcapitalist Desire lectures, where he demonstrates that capitalist realism is so pervasive, it is not only difficult to imagine a new world that is different-in-itself, but also difficult to ascertain a different world emerging from our world of sameness – that is, even the articulation of a postcapitalist world, a world produced by capitalism that is not capitalist any longer, is difficult for us to understand. But as Fisher wrote a few years after the publication of Capitalist Realism, we must reject “the idea that everything produced ‘under’ capitalism fully belongs to capitalism”, instead insisting that “there are desires and processes which capitalism gives rise to and feeds upon, but which it cannot contain.” The task of identifying these differential desires and processes is one of uncovering the differences that capitalism struggles to subsume under its purview. Indeed, there is a great deal of difference in this world, and we do ourselves a disservice when we identity these differences as inherently capitalist in nature, as if to be “capitalist” is an identity that subsumes everything around us.

In this regard, the “structure of feeling” that Fisher often engages with is a sense of stagnation, a feeling that nothing changes, whilst at the same time we know that everything has already changed around us. But this is why “capitalist realism”, as the major ideology of the present, as a political identity (albeit a voided one, like whiteness), as an atmosphere of political consistency and continuation, is so weird. It is not as ubiquitous as it first appears. There are gaps in its ideological firmament, which difference leaks through. But “capitalist realism” is a system that obscures change, that asserts its own consistency and sameness in the face of frenzied contingencies.

I would argue it was Fisher’s ultimate goal to emphasize contingency over stasis in this way, so that we can better account for the opportunities available to us, shaking off political apathy and complacency. After Fisher’s death, someone at Goldsmiths – I never did find out who – produced a poster with a quotation from Capitalist Realism that made this point clear, which my friends later painted onto a wall by Goldsmiths’ library, and which later went around the world as ‘the Mark Fisher mural’: “Emancipatory politics must always destroy the appearance of a ‘natural order’, must reveal what is presented as necessary and inevitable to be a mere contingency, just as it must make what was previously deemed to be impossible seem attainable.” Emancipatory politics is nothing less than an emancipation from identity – an emancipation from illusions of stasis and sameness, from the false consistency of a ‘natural order’. The first step on the way to achieving this – as I argue in Egress – may be to shake off the enclosures of identity we construct for ourselves on an individual level. This is not to unburden ourselves from community or solidarity in general, but to construct a better understanding of solidarity that is not prejudiced towards sameness and instead seeks out difference all around us, as well as the virtualities these differences signify that are radically other to a capitalistic way of doing things.

3. At various points, you have pointed to the existing connection between your first book, Egress, and your second book, Narcissus in Bloom (NIB). What is the nature of this connection? How did the themes you previously addressed lead to a reflection on self-portraits (selfies), the figure of Narcissus, and narcissism?

Narcissus in Bloom is a book that similarly contends with these contradictions of identity. At the start of the book, I note how narcissism was originally rendered as a pathological ‘love of the same’, and as a psychoanalytic diagnosis synonymous with homosexuality in particular – the primary affliction or symptom of ‘men who love other men’. But from here, I further develop the concluding argument of Steven Bruhm’s 2001 book on the politics of queerness, Reflecting Narcissus, where he writes that “Narcissus, who is said to aspire to that which is the same, is continually destroying the political safety promised by sameness.”

Similarly, Egress was a deeply personal book to me – explicitly so, in that so much of it is written in the first person. Online, this led some people to call it a ‘narcissistic’ project. But my intention, which I think is quite explicit in the text, was to call the ‘I’ at its heart into question, to explore the ways in which the ‘I’ that I am is dissolved and problematised on contact with a political community. Narcissus in Bloom – this time written contrastingly in the third person – explores this same gesture through art history, revealing how the history of the self-portrait is itself the history of our self-questioning, the history of the destruction of political safety, at once informed by the politics of liberalism whilst seeking a jailbreak from its complacencies.

4. Starting from your recognition of narcissism as an element capable of facilitating the formation of communities, do you consider it to have a certain political potential? If so, what would that potential be and how could it be activated?

When Narcissus stumbles across his own reflection in a pond, it is not so simply the case that he is encountering himself for the first time. Narcissus is instead tormented by an encounter with the self-as-other, with a difference at the heart of a malformed identity. It is an existential ordeal that we all arguably experience at some point or another. After all, who has not felt uncomfortable on hearing a recording of their own voice, for example, noticing how different this voice sounds to the voice we hear in our own heads? (An experience denied to Echo, in the myth of Narcissus, just as Narcissus himself is denied self-knowledge.)

The self, then, is not, in itself, self-contained. To return again to Gilles Deleuze, it is in light of this that he offers us the concept of the dividual. Our understanding of the ‘individual’ is inherited from a Protestant liberalism and individualism, which sees the self as decisively “indivisible.” But on the contrary, we are, in the context of our social relations, perpetually divided. The dividual, however, is not a wholly positive political concept for Deleuze. In many instances, the self is divided through labour – I am not the same person I am at home as I am at work, such is the process of alienation described by Karl Marx. But in recognising the ways in which we are divided, we can begin to understand how changes of self can be actualised as much from within as they are imposed on us from without.

But this is partly why self-portraiture, as one vehicle through which we can interrogate our dividuated nature, is so interesting to me. It is one way in which we can provide an account of the selves, revealing selves hidden, or otherwise constructing new selves. To take a selfie is not necessarily a way of representing the individual self, then, but rather the myriad differences the supposedly ‘individual’ self already contains.

To understand the self on the basis of difference is, I argue, a starting point from which we can consider society in general on the basis of the different. It is one way of deconstructing the typically underexamined classificatory systems we use to frame our understanding of ourselves in society, and on this basis we can reveal all of the things it is possible for us to be – the seeds of which we all already possess. Rather than an exploration of identity, then, the selfie has so often been utilised as a method for exploring a dividuated sense of difference, and since the selfie is so ubiquitous in our modern age, I argue that the construction of other worlds is more accessible to us than we might think – in fact, it is as accessible as the construction of new selves. Indeed, if the selfie is the subject of so much contemporary moralising, it is perhaps because our preoccupation with this mode of expression is seen as a threat to the political safety otherwise promised to us by the pervasive sameness of capitalist realism.

5. Should we move away from theoretical and identity emphases to transition towards affective tones in the formation of solidaristic communities? Is it possible to be solidaristic without demanding a minimal similarity?

Yes, I think it is not only possible but essential. In fact, theories of identity are arguably already entangled with affective tones in how we understand the world. I defer to Deleuze here once more – and this is a major topic of my in-progress PhD thesis on Deleuze, Guattari and the politics of the family. Populist conservatives (like Ben Shapiro in the US) constantly insist that “facts don’t care about your feelings”; ironically, this couldn’t possibly be further from the truth. As Deleuze argues in his first philosophical work, Empiricism and Subjectivity, “reason is a feeling”. The distinction between subject/object – that is, between subjectivity and objectivity, between feeling and reason – is wholly illusory and abstract. The similarities we perceive in the world around us, and in each other, are constructed on the basis of identitarian classifications alone. They are seldom immune to mutation or adaptation. This is not to disregard affective similarities in total, however; there is nothing wrong with these constructions in themselves, except when they are used to uphold ideological naturalisms. But I would argue it is more useful for us to understand that all of our communities are founded on affections, on “sympathies”. The family, in this regard, is no better or worse than any other kind of intentional community, except in the ways in which families are excluded from one another, such that we do not offer the kind of support we offer to our families to other people in general.

This is the central problem of society, Deleuze argues: our familial sympathies are restrictive, rather than integrative. “What we find in nature, without exception, are families”, he writes. “The family, independently of all legislation, is explained by the sexual instinct and by sympathy – sympathy between parents, and sympathy of parents for their offspring”. But what appears to be a more ‘natural’ virtue – since we “condemn the parents who prefer strangers to their own children” – nonetheless presents us with various obstacles and only emboldens our alienation from people who aren’t family members. Deleuze then adds: “The problem of society … is not a problem of limitation, but rather a problem of integration. To integrate sympathies is to make sympathy transcend its contradiction and natural partiality. Such an integration implies a positive moral world, and is brought about by the positive invention of such a world.”

The point, then, is that notions of similarity too often set up enclosures and exacerbate our tendency to disparage social difference. Just as I implied in Egress (particularly in the chapter on the philosophy of “friendship”), our commitments to others are at once constituted and obstructed by institutions, such as the university or the family. In general, we live in a world in which the integration of our sympathies with others who are not (biologically) similar to us is discouraged, but surely we are all aware of how limiting this kind of similarity can be. We need to expand our sympathies to those who are considered different to us, even dissolving the classificatory systems that assert similarity/difference as a binary. In fact, we have nothing but our differences, and transcending similarity on this basis is integral to the invention of a more “positive moral world”.

6. In the case of enabling the political activation of affects, how do we prevent their channeling through populisms? Or is there nothing wrong with the articulation of populisms when they can be the means to achieve some demands of the working class?

A solidarity without similarity is again integral here. In general, a twenty-first-century populism has, in general, raised more problems than it has solved. For starters, its appeal to ‘popular’ conceptions of ‘the people’, particularly a so-called ‘ordinary people’, as opposed to just as loosely defined ‘elites’, raises questions around who counts as ‘ordinary’ from the perspective of a societal ‘common sense’. We are back on the slippery slope of an ‘identity politics’ that is utilised both in service of a politics of difference and a politics of sameness, which are entangled in seemingly contradictory ways.

Populism is thus wholly dependent on identity politics in both positive and negative ways, but in its current form, populism shows how identity politics, although most associated with the left, has an even more forceful hold on the right. By way of an example, in the UK we have recently seen an explosion of race riots, in which disenfranchised white people have openly attacked ethnic minorities and non-Christian places of worship, leading some in the media to identify these riots as ‘pogroms’ rather than ‘protests’. These rioters identify themselves as patriots, defending the identitarian enclosure of ‘England’ from invading forces of difference. But against these few dissenting voices, the mainstream media was at first reluctant to acknowledge that these riots were fuelled by far right and other reactionary sentiments that a British media establishment has been spreading for decades. Instead, many insisted that the rioters are working-class people with “legitimate concerns” about immigration into this country from elsewhere, as if they were displays of working-class solidarity that only unfortunately descended into violence, rather than being outright violent rejections of social difference. This problem of identification arguably arose from a desire to acknowledge ‘popular’ sentiment amongst a ‘people’, with little interrogation of the reactionary forces and hierarchies of power that manipulate ‘popular thought’ and ‘common sense’ as such today.

This is not to suggest that populism is entirely negative, however. A left populism has attempted to redefine our sense of ‘the people’ along far more diverse lines than the right, with Jeremy Corbyn’s “for the many, not the few” mantra being a prime example here in the UK. The multitude to which this left populism refers is notably diverse, often acknowledging the diversity of a contemporary working class in the UK, with migrant workers constituting a core part of this class in many industries, rather than being a threat to its way of life. But it appears that populism in general – in too often deferring to a ‘lowest common denominator’ in terms of what an ‘ordinary person’ is – too often upholds homogenous understandings of ‘common sense’ that we must necessarily overcome if we are to do justice to the diverse constituents of our political reality, beyond the limitations of capitalist realism. Indeed, if our task is changing our political reality, it is far more essential that we challenge what is supposedly ‘popular’ rather than adhering to common – and paradoxically limited – understandings of how a populus is defined from above.

7. It has been almost a decade since the death of Mark Fisher. We have experienced a global pandemic, the threat of rising warfare in Europe and the Middle East, international indifference to the invasion of embassies, the strengthening of right-wing groups, and the impact of the first technological wave of artificial intelligence companies. Would you adjust Fisher’s diagnoses and proposals?

Mark Fisher was a writer who – to paraphrase Kodwo Eshun – was perfectly attuned to the time-signature of the present. This is why Fisher’s k-punk blog was so important, and was in so many ways his “life-work”. He so often wrote directly from the present he was experiencing. This made Fisher an essential chronicler of his own time, but since his death, many are mournful that our present is no longer his.

The effect of this on Mark’s work as a whole is that its relevance has a tendency to slip. His writings now refer to a past that is not our present, but if we are to still find his writings useful, it is necessary that they are updated to the present we are actually living through. This task is not Fisher’s alone, but all of ours. Thus, in deferring to his writings, it is always necessary that we consider how much has changed, just as we can note how so much has stayed the same.

In 2022, I was invited by Zer0 Books to write an introduction to the reissue of Fisher’s second book, Ghosts of My Life, and if I may, I’d like to summarise an argument I made in that text – which, to my knowledge, has not been translated outside of the UK – that helps clarify how this process of updating our diagnoses was integral to Fisher’s writing even whilst he was alive.

In collectively formulating the concept of ‘hauntology’ with a wider blogosphere, which expanded outwards from the term’s Derridean context to the explore the “degraded ideals” being expressed in so much culture in the mid-2000s, Fisher diagnosed a “reflexive impotence” and feeling of stagnation that was ubiquitous within popular music, singling out the Arctic Monkeys’ first album as a prime example. “They know things are bad, but more than that, they know they can’t do anything about it”, he writes, suggesting that the popularity of the Arctic Monkeys was indicative of how pervasive this impotence was in British society at large. The music of Burial, by contrast, evoked the degradation of a rave politics, which was originally an exploration of another world within this one, where nightlife was contrasted with the quotidian habits of the day. Which its mournful sound felt like the familiar expression of the knowledge that “things are bad”, there is in Burial’s music the allusion that these other worlds are still present, even if spectrally so.

It is important to note that rave culture, to quote Simon Reynolds, was explicitly understood in the 1990s as “a secession from normality, a subculture based around what Antonio Melechi characterizes as a kind of collective disappearance”, empowering ravers who were enthral to “the idea that there was this whole society of people who lived at night and slept during the day … slipping into a parallel universe”. Following attempts (by the UK government in particular) to outlaw raves, which soon became subsumed under the new capitalist logic of a ‘nighttime economy’, this sense of slipping into a parallel universe was supposedly diminished. But far from disappearing completely, the hauntological sounds of the 2000s, produced after the so-called “death of rave”, demonstrated that rave culture had only undergone a phase-change. The world it promised had not disappeared but had rather become more spectral. Rather than implying the diminishment of rave’s power, it showed how powerful the ideas of rave culture remained – just as Derrida argued that the ideas of communism, after the so-called “end of history”, continue to haunt us. In light of thus, what a blogospheric ‘hauntology’ also sought to demonstrate, to quote Fisher, was that we live in a “crashed present … littered with the ideological rubble of failed projects”, and those projects otherwise discarded on the scrapheap of history are ripe for salvage. It is up to us, in the present, to reclaim them and use them to produce new constructions more applicable to now.

We can apply this same logic, which Fisher applied to music, to Fisher’s writings themselves. Although Fisher is dead, no longer actively producing new thought, his ideas haunt us. And so, even though the worlds that Fisher’s writings promised seem distant from us now, almost a decade after his death, we can still follow his lead and salvage his most poignant concepts and ideas to construct new ones. His work is reflexively useful in this regard, because it was Fisher, arguably more effectively than anyone else, who showed us how to diagnose and adapt the concepts and affect of our recent past to produce new proposals more applicable to the present and its potential futures. Fisher’s death only makes this task more necessary. We miss him, we miss the force of his ‘conceptual engineering’, but if interest in his work has only grown since his death, it is because he provides us with an example of how to be, how to think, how to contend with the complexities of our present. It is not so necessary that we update his thought in isolation, then, but continually update our own thinking, by attuning ourselves to the present as productively as he did.

 

Matt Colquhoun is a British writer and photographer globally known for his publications on the legacy of Mark Fisher, whom he studied under at Goldsmiths, University of London. His most recent book, Narcissus in Bloom (2023), explores the phenomenon of selfie digital culture and its connection to narcissism, political discontent, and the capacity for (self)transformation. After working on the idea of community and melancholy, following the loss of his mentor, he is currently researching the topic of orphanhood through the philosophy of Deleuze and Guattari. As a photographer and curator, he has participated in photography exhibitions at Ffotogallery, BAFTA, and the D&AD Festival, as well as in art events in France and Japan.

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